This episode is about the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues, as explored through the perspectives of science, art, and faith.

The Ethics of F***ing

TRIGGER WARNING: The interview with Christopher West in Part 2 could be triggering to members of the LGBTQIA+ community. It's included so people with non-affiriming viewpoints on LGBTQIA+ on sexuality are prompted to examine the implications of that worldview, but we encourge our listners to use discretion before listening to that segment.

In this episode, we’re talking about how to discern what is right and healthy for people in sexual activity.

We’d like to thank our guests on this episode, and we encourage you to check out their work.

Bromliegh McCleneghan, Author of Good Christian Sex

Darren Calhoun, Artist and Speaker

Christopher West, Author, Speaker, Teacher and Expert in John Paul II’s

Theology of the Body

Caroline Lee, Artist and Photographer

Jamie Lee Finch, Relationship Guide, Intuitive Healer

Lisa Gungor, Artist and Author

Meet the New Hosts

On this episode, we welcome two new hosts to the podast: William Matthews and Hillary McBride. Plus, we uncover the hottest new band in worship music, Abraham's Bosom.

Mike McHargueSeason 4
Shame - Live From Seattle

This is a special live episode recorded at The Liturigsts Gathering in Seattle, WA on October 27, 2017.

Thanks Hillary McBride for joining us on this episode. Her new book is available now.

Special Announcement: We're starting something new next year for those of you who want to go deeper with topics we discuss on The Liturgists Podcast via video courses. If you'd like to get access to these first, you can  preorder the first two for the price of one here.

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Enemies - Live from Los Angeles

This is a special live episode recorded at The Liturigsts Gathering in Los Angeles, CA on September 15, 2017.

Thanks Iris Chandler, Sarah Heath, William Matthews, Lisa Gungor, and Peter Rollins for joining us on this episode.

Mike McHargue

An exploration of what names are, how they shape us, and what happens when we change more than our label can accommodate.

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Pale Blue Dot

In this episode Science Mike and Michael Gungor talk about the psychological shift that comes with seeing the Earth from space with Guy Reid and Jacob Marshall. We also spoke with climate scientist Katharine Hayhoe about the science behind climate change, and what we can do to protect life on this planet.

Watch Guy’s film OVERVIEW here to learn more about The Overview Effect. You can see more work by Guy at

You can learn more about the work of Katharine Hayhoe on her website, including resources and videos about the science of global climate change.

Ready to act? Join The Liturgists in taking action on climate.

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Spiritual Trauma

We’ve heard thousands of stories from people who’ve been hurt by someone in their faith communities–it’s one of the most common elements among The Liturgists. In this episode we discuss spiritual trauma: what it is, how to cope with it, and how to support others through it. Michael Gungor and Science Mike spoke with Hillary McBride, Teresa Pasquale Mateus, and Carol Howard Merritt about trauma in spiritual contexts.

Hillary McBride is a registered clinical counsellor in Vancouver BC, and is a PhD candidate in Counseling Psychology at the University of British Columbia. She has her own private practice specializing in trauma and trauma therapies, both single incident traumas and complex developmental traumas. Hillary has a book coming out in October 2017 called 'mothers, daughters, and body image: learning to love ourselves as we are" about women making peace with their bodies, and learning to embrace and enjoy their bodies- shifting the tide of normative body dissatisfaction among westernized women. You can learn more about Hillary on her website.

Teresa B. Pasquale Mateus, LCSW, E-RYT 200 is a trauma psychotherapist, yoga and contemplative practice teacher and author based out of Chicago, Illinois. She is a graduate of New York University's School of Clinical Social work and Richard Rohr's Living School at the Center for Action and Contemplation. She is co-founder and Executive Director of The Mystic Soul Project whose mission is to center the voices, work, and formation for people of color in contemplation, action and healing. She is the author of Sacred Wounds: A Path To Healing from Spiritual Trauma and Mending Broken: A Personal Journey Through the Stages of Trauma & Recovery. Teresa teaches, preaches, lectures, facilitates experiential workshops and retreats around issues of trauma, spiritual journey, ritual, as well as the interconnection between contemplation and action (often with a specifically people of color centered approach). You can learn more about Teresa on her website.

Rev. Carol Howard Merritt is a minister whose writing, speaking, and teaching is anchored in theological wisdom and sociological insight. She’s a sought-after keynote speaker, especially on the topic of ministering in a new generation. The award-winning author of Tribal Church: Ministering to the Missing Generation, Reframing Hope: Vital Ministry in a New Generation, and Healing Spiritual Wounds: Reconnecting with a Loving God After Experiencing a Hurtful Church. Carol is a frequent contributor to books, websites, magazines, and journals. She is a regular writer at the Christian Century where her blog is hosted. You can learn more about Carol on her website.

Additional Resources on Spiritual Trauma

Sacred Wounds: A Path to Healing from Spiritual Trauma by Teresa B. Pasquale Mateus (a guest on this episode).

Healing Spiritual Wounds: Reconnecting with a Loving God After Experiencing a Hurtful Church by Carol Howard Merritt (a guest on this episode).

Hillary offers these suggestions for additional resources:

TW: Please read these books at your discretion. Some books may be more academic and clinical, while others are designed to help you work through trauma or support people you love with trauma. 

these books contain information and narratives about:

interpersonal violence, sexual assault, military trauma, incest, catastrophic disasters, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse, clergy abuse. 

If you are looking for a trauma therapist following listening to this episode, consider looking for a therapist who has training in:

EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy)

SE (Somatic experiencing)

SP (Sensorimotor psychotherapy)

LI (Lifespan integration)

OEI (Observed and experiential integration)

Hakomi - body based therapy 


trauma and recovery: judith herman

pornography and the end of masculinity: robert jensen

getting past your past- francine shapiro

in an unspoken voice - peter levine

trauma and memory- peter levine

poly vagal theory - steven porges

living like you mean it: ronald fredericks

the body keeps the score: bessel van der kolk

loving someone with PTSD: aphrodite Matsakis

overcoming trauma and PSTD - a workbook: sheela raja

waking the tiger - peter levine

healing trauma- peter levine

attached - amir levin, rachel heller

life after trauma- a workbook: dena rosenbloom, mary beth williams

the sexual healing journey- wendy maltz

the courage to heal- ellen bass

yes means yes- jessica valenti

rape is rape: jody raphae

photo credit: mripp Right in the middle via photopin (license)
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